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So, coax and optical cables for gaming pcs ?

Discussion in 'General Open/Public Discussion' started by Doomhawk, 8 Aug 2008.


  1. Doomhawk

    Doomhawk Council of Elders<BR>UberPigeon Elder DragonWolf

    Anyone happen to use these ? I read up on them a little bit last night since im probaby going to buy a Pci-e X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty, and I have the logitech Z5500 speakers. (might consider another brand of soundcard if someone has suggestions since creatives drivers are usualy pure shit)

    That soundcard has a Toslink, and im assuming the optical hookup on the 5500 speakers connects to that ? The speakers also have a jack for coax, but the soundcard lacks that.

    Ive read a couple post that say you loose 5.1 surround sound in games using the Toslink and going to the logitech speaker system ? (supposedly still works for movies/music) Then ive read others that say you can make it work by converting it to coax, and then other post that say everything works just fine with the toslink lol.

    Im pretty damn clueless to begin with, and reading those random post on the intertubes makes me even more confused :p

    Anyways, Im just wondering if anyone can help out a bit. I wouldnt even bother, but this this 4th pc ive had here, and 3rd set of speakers, and for some reason ive always got interferance and line noise, so im hoping going to digital and to the pci-e card would fix it.


    Heres some links to the soundcard and speakers if its any help

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102019

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16836121120
     
  2. Tbeast

    Tbeast Recruitment Officer Officer Elder

    Officer
    no clue on sound cards doomy...

    looks like a nice setup , just havent read much like you on that kind of stuff
     
  3. symen

    symen DragonWolf

    I'm not familiar with TOSLINK, but the soundcard you linked has the traditional set of 1/8" TRS jacks to connect your speakers to, which would certainly work, so I would think you would be in business either way.

    There's no real benefit in using optical connections for speaker cabling anyway. The only real benefit such a connection has is that it isn't susceptible to induced line noise (which is advantageous when used for its original purpose; connecting line-level sources such as a CD or DVD player to an amplifier), but speaker connections operate at voltages and frequencies which aren't particularly susceptible to induced noise, anyway.

    Actually, you can use pretty much anything that can handle the current as speaker wire. I own a public-address system, so I do audio support for events on occasion. I've cut the ends off of old extension cords and used those with no ill effects, and on one occasion I used two sets of jumper cables and a couple of hundred feet of old wire fence.
     
  4. Doomhawk

    Doomhawk Council of Elders<BR>UberPigeon Elder DragonWolf

    Well I ordered the card and a toslink cable that should work between the two. You can toggle between the toslink and analog through the speaker system. As far as ive read 5.1 surround wont work over the toslink in games (atleast positional I think) but it should work ok for certain movie formats. Either way ill find out what works and what dont soon enough :p

    I just dont know what causes the noise in my systems though. The last 2 especialy have been realy strange. It dont always happen, but occasionaly when browsing webpages, or looking through folders or something on the desktop you could hear a humming noise from the speakers. Realy weird part is the sound would change by moving the mouse, or holding in a button and draging a window or something. On another older pc, when the cd drive ran the speakers would click in tune with the noise the drive made.

    I keep all my line ins, mics, and everything else disabled or muted, only keep the outputs open that need to be. Everythings powered through the same outlet (exception is my cable modem and router) so ground loops from grounding ive read about should be elimitated ? This new soundcards PCI-E so thats supposed to get rid of alot of noise thats normal on PCI boards, and its shielded, so maybe that will solve it.
     
  5. symen

    symen DragonWolf

    Connecting your speakers with optical cabling probably isn't going to reduce this sort of noise, because it likely isn't being induced in the speaker cabling, it's coming in further up the line. It could be induced by a noisy monitor (more on this below) if your speaker cables run very close to it, but this seems unlikely to me. Still, try routing your speaker connections away from your monitor to see if that reduces noise.

    Your mouse is attached to the end of six feet of cable, which makes it a passable RF antenna. Computer peripherals in general are pretty bad about this sort of thing. It doesn't affect the operation of your computer, since the whole thing works in binary on-off states on the electrical level, which is quite resistant to RF interference. So, because peripherals work fine either way, some manufacturers choose not to incur the extra cost of shielding them. It could also be your monitor (do you have a CRT monitor?). CRTs are actually pretty good short-range AM radio transmitters, and the transmission is modulated by the changing picture on the screen. If you have an hour someday, download the "Tempest for Eliza" software for a scary demonstration of this. As you use your mouse, the picture changes on your monitor, and the RF interference can change. I suspect that this is probably related to your mouse, though. There's an easy way to find out which -- just hold down a mouse button without moving the cursor, if the modulation changes, it's probably your mouse.

    You can probably fix it yourself quite easily, though. A $1.50 ferrite bead around your mouse or monitor cord an inch or so back from the connector will probably stop the noise. Get the kind that comes in two pieces and snaps together around your cable. This is a standard way of reducing RF interference in computers -- you may have peripheral connectors or power supplies already with half-inch plastic cylinders around the cable near the end. Same thing.

    Ground loops can cause unwanted noise. Your computer does share a common ground with your cable modem and router through your Ethernet cable -- both devices need to agree on what voltage represents ground so that their relative signal voltages will make sense to each other. As an experiment, you might disconnect your Ethernet cable from your computer, and see if the noise still persists. Another possibility is improper earth grounding. If you have a multimeter, check to see that the potential of the ground pin between your two outlets is exactly 0 volts. If not, one of them is likely lifted. Yet another possibility is that your power source has some sort of ugly harmonic being induced into it somewhere. If a telephone or cable TV line runs right next to a power run, this can potentially happen. Unfortunately, if this is the case, there isn't much that can be easily done about it.

    All that said, because your mouse actions modulate the noise, I suspect that the noise is coming from either there or your monitor. Hope you get it figured out. :)
     
  6. Doomhawk

    Doomhawk Council of Elders<BR>UberPigeon Elder DragonWolf

    Wow, thanks for the response :) I have an LCD right now, but when I used a CRT the effect was more often and much more noticeable. the mouse ive been using is a logitech G5, the usb end has one of the ferrite gizzmos, but the end by the mouse obviously dont, maybe ill try attatching one at a point it wont interfer with mouse movement.

    I did actualy try last night dissconecting my ethernet cable but I still had a crackling noise in the speakers. I do have almost all of my lines for everything pretty neatly tied together, but many of them including the audio cables are running along side power cables and others.

    Im going to start looking at different ways of routing wires, and im going to trim all the extra length off my auido cables as well (there about 2-3x longer then they need to be) Ill borrow a meter also and test the grounds here. The indicator light on my power strips shows there is grounds on most my outlets (a couple dont though) but I have no idea if the voltage is 0 on them.

    I dont know if this is strange either, but a couple years ago while disconecting the coax cable line from my moden I was touching the metal back of my pc, and it zapped the shit out of me :p I think they might of came out and fixed that. but im not positive. Any idea what kind of voltage should be coming through a cable line ?
     
  7. symen

    symen DragonWolf

    You're welcome. :D

    The ferrite bead already at the USB end of the mouse will eliminate any interference from there, adding another wouldn't have any additional effect.

    Last night, I thought of a couple of other things you can check: Did you build your computer? If so, did you use the little isolation washers when you mounted your motherboard in the case? Also, you said that the unused inputs on your soundcard were all muted. Did you go into "Advanced Options" in the Volume Control program to make sure that every input was selected?

    So it's not a ground loop with your router/cable modem. That's good, we've eliminated one possibility.

    Power cables carry quite a high voltage compared to your other cables, and they carry an oscillation around 50 or 60Hz, which is well into the audio range. You could be getting induced noise here.

    The ground indicators on power strips aren't all that reliable, so you're on the right track testing your outlets properly with a meter. Set the meter to test AC voltage. The 200 volt range is a good one for house wiring if the meter isn't an autoranging model. Perform these tests on each outlet (AC doesn't have polarity, so it doesn't matter which lead goes where):

    • Hot to neutral: One lead in hot (the smaller of the two vertical slots), the other in neutral (the larger vertical slot). Should read between 110 and 120 VAC.
    • Hot to ground: One lead in hot, the other in earth ground. Should read between 110 and 120 VAC.
    • Neutral to ground: One lead in neutral, the other in earth ground. Should read 0 volts.

    The voltage on your earth ground, not read to anything in particular, won't necessarily be 0 volts. Every Class 1 device in your house dumps some amount of current to ground while it is running, so you may have a small voltage (less than 5 volts) on it. However, every earth ground should be at the same potential, so the voltage should be exactly 0 when read from the ground on one outlet to the ground on another.

    A computer is typically a Class 1 electrical device, meaning that the electronics inside are enclosed in a metal case which is electrically connected to earth ground, which provides EMF shielding and isolation of the electrical current (the other kind, a Class 2 device, is one in which the electronics are completely enclosed in a nonconductive shield, and is not necessarily earth-grounded). So, when you were touching your computer's case, your body provided a path to ground for the current on the cable line, and you got a shock.

    The resistance of your skin is such that about 30 volts is necessary to penetrate it. I don't know much about cable TV, so maybe someone else who knows more can confirm or deny this: AFAIK, there should be very little voltage present on a cable TV line. However, 60 volts or so could be normal voltage present on a CATV line amplifier. If the cable guy connected your drop to the wrong connector on the amplifier, or the isolation transformer in the amplifier isn't working correctly, you could see that voltage on your line. This is easy to test for -- just read the voltage from the center connector to the retaining sleeve. Check for both AC and DC voltage.

    Hope this helps, too. :D
     
  8. Hamma

    Hamma Commanding Officer Officer

    Officer
    Symen ftw!

    :eek:

    Lots of good info here need to Bm this thread lol
     
  9. Doomhawk

    Doomhawk Council of Elders<BR>UberPigeon Elder DragonWolf

    Yeah, awesome info :) ive googled this problem a ton, but every thread ive read says something completely differnt, and many even suggest drivers, or even bios updates, but I realy dont get how those could effect much.

    This has me realy currious, ive built the last 5 or so PCs ive used, and ive never once seen any sort of isolation washers for mounting the mobo. Its always just been threads in steel/aluminum case, then brass bolt extensions.

    I always set the mobo directly on to those. All the screw locations have a round metal section that the bolt heads have always stayed inside, and thats away or seperated from the traces in the mobo. Should there be something else, or were you refering to the brass extensions as the insulators ?

    I cant post alot right now, but ill go through all of this when I have some time at home :)
     
  10. Full Otto

    Full Otto Chain Gun Madman

    Doomy,
    TrudyPinks dad does audio visual for a living. He maybe able to help (maxxroxx in aggromar) will see if I can get him to check out this post.
     
  11. symen

    symen DragonWolf

    This is a problem with either grounding or electrical interference. I'm not sure how driver updates can solve that one, either. :p

    Your motherboard should have come with little orange phenolic washers that are supposed to be put between the motherboard and the screw that holds the board into the brass mounting post. The motherboard is already grounded through the computer's power supply, so you could end up with ground currents in the computer case if the board isn't isolated from it.
     
  12. Doomhawk

    Doomhawk Council of Elders<BR>UberPigeon Elder DragonWolf

    Ok, just got home and checked definatly no washers of any sort have came with my cases or mobos that ive had. I did find a couple post saying that they shouldnt be necesary, but maybe ill look into them. Im installing another HD tonight and that sound card so i might try and route my cables differently to start out with.
     
  13. Doomhawk

    Doomhawk Council of Elders<BR>UberPigeon Elder DragonWolf

    Ok, I have my pc mostly back together. I rearanged my cable system, but its pretty much impossble to not have some wires cross or be near each other.

    Still a very low humming noise coming through the speakers, but I have to put my ear to them to hear it at normal listning levels. I havent had a chance to look and disable all the extra inputs yet, but maybe a slight amount is normal ? The huming noise is there with either analog or using the optical cable btw.

    The crackling and poping noise is gone for now, but I do only have the front 2 speakers hooked up, I trimmed the wires so there only as long as they need to be.

    Anyways, time to hookup my old HD and try to play wahrammer some :p Ill setup the the other speakers later lol.
     
  14. symen

    symen DragonWolf

    A small amount of noise that you can hear with your ear to the speaker is perfectly normal. Glad you got it sorted out. :D
     

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