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Nice post Cyrus. You surprise me sometimes.

 

what Manitou said

 

It is baffling - we sure do a hell of alot, yet so many other countries don't like us...wtf

 

Nice post. Thank you for sharing.

 

Great post -- I'm saving that one so I can read it again later. That is the core of what makes this the greatest country in the world.

 

That would be because of the American Government, not people. And honestly the whole idea of "because they hate is" is contrived. Its more to the lines of "because they don't have American business interests on their land".

But I'm a cynic. Wasn't it franklin that said a revolution is healthy for a society once every 100 years or so? I think we're overdue.

-dd

 

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

-- Thomas Jefferson

 

Could it be Jefferson's other quote; "A little rebellion now and then is a good thing."

One thing history has shown, no "super power" has stayed there forever. Things change.

 

You ever read Deborah Tannen's: War of Words? It's taken from her book The Argument Culture: Moving from debate to dialoge. Very broadly she says some American people are closed minded and our society thrives off negativity. If you think about it.. she's dead on the mark. I could ask a question and no one here will answer. However I make a negative statement and there's going to be posts right away. Americans love to correct each other but we don't like helping each other.

Like the Roman people Americans secretly think themselves superior to everyone else in the world. We are an egotistical people who think our way of life is the only good way of life and we force our values (or lack of) and ways on other nations.

Our latest lethal dose of democracy was given to Iraq. That nation is in chaos. Iraqi people are getting gathered up and tossed into American detention centers because they were standing near a suspected terrorist. While staying their they sometimes get tortured, humiliated, and beaten. They didn't do anything wrong.. they were just victims of circumstance and you didn't know about it till a good soldier came forward and said "this is wrong" and turned them in. Imagine all the things that go on that you don't know about? How long were innocent people tortured before you found out?

Meanwhile factions walk into grade schools, shoot and kill the teacher of those grade school because they have violated a sacred law that Muslim people have held for centuries. These people going around killing others are terrorists to you but to them.. they are simply maintaining their way of life. We want to change everything and they are willing to die for their values and religion. You may not think it's correct but they are willing to die for their beliefs. Are you willing to die for yours?

American people have no conception of their reality. You freaked out when 2 people in LA went 5150 on some cops with 2 AKs. Just about everyone in Iraq has shot or owns an AK. That's a household weapon in that nation. 9/11 shocked and devastated America. Iraq had fucking mushroom clouds erupting all over it's nations cities. We killed them by the thousands and I didn't see anyone crying about it. "That's just unreal looking. Are you recording this?" is what I heard not "OMG we just killed thousands of people." See where the matters of perception change? Why did we go to Iraq? To kill Saddam? I could have sent a sniper or missile strike to do that. Why invade a nation and take it over?

Now we have a serious problem because while some resist others enjoy the freedoms we are showing them but the resistance is so strong that they kill public leaders who try to change their way of life. During our hurricanes some Iraqi people feared that our troops would leave and they would be killed by other Iraqis who wanted the old way of life back. What do we do? We can't stay there forever but we can't leave these people to die. Our freedoms fuck with their religion and if history has shown us anything it's that a religious person will never give up and die fighting for what they believe in.

Kill an American? Why go to America when you can go to Iraq. That poor soldier is just standing there at a checkpoint doing his duty. He doesn't want to be there. From what I hear none of them want to be there. They want to come home. They want to be with their families but he'll never be with his family again. Cause here comes that angry Iraqi. He's here to defend his religion, his way of life, avenge his family.. you take a pick.. and he's going to slam an RPG right into the wall beside that soldier and send shrapnel ripping through his body. Then the other soldiers are going to kill the Iraqi but in their heads there's that thought "I could be next". Both men died but only one of them died for what he believes in. The American soldier died not for what he believes in but because it is his duty and that is true honor.

Why do they hate us.. so many reasons and some of them are just to hate us because of what we are. We are the opposite of them and they don't want change. They want to maintain their way of life and they fear we will try and change that. They can also hate us simply to hate us because we are different but where does it end? With understanding and open minds. Everybody is talking with a closed mind but nobody is listening. It's time to start asking why instead of hostile reactions. There are only two paths to peace.. genocide and diplomacy.

I remember 9/11. Everyone was angry talking about attacking and destroying and I was yelled at because I said something unpopular. Like a scientist I asked "why" and looked for solutions while everyone else looked for revenge. Now, years later, I come back to you and say this.. you've had your revenge and they've had theirs. How does it taste, what have you solved, and where is the end? We need more teachers. People need to start listening with open minded and not just violently attack unpopular opinions.

 

Try posting something like that in Iran mtx.

 

I didn't forget why we went to Iraq. You think WMD was the reason? Don't you remember the whole Mr. V vs Mtx on PSU over this debate? I knew then and have only been proven right sense then that WMD is total and complete bullshit. The world followed us into Afghanistan. (BTW that nation is still controlled by factions. Yeah they may have an official leader but he has no power outside of his own city. The militias control that nation as they always have.) The world would not follow us into Iraq. Why? Because we HAD NO PROOF. The world isn't ready to invade and destroy a nation without proof but we are.

WAR.. is the VERY LAST thing you do when all diplomacy has failed and your enemy is of a real imminent threat to you. Don't you remember Mr. V screaming how they had WMD and they were going to destroy us and once again I stepped forward saying "There's no proof we just want the oil". Years later.. we have taken control of all Iraqi oil and there are no WMD. First thing we did when we invaded is assume control of the oil. Then we ceased control of the contracts to the oil and terminated all future contracts Iraq had on that oil already in place. The Russians, French and many other nations lost a lot of money because of that. Now that we own the contracts we quiet literally own the oil. You want Iraqi oil.. buy from America.

As for Iran.. I'm fine with them having nuclear power. Even if I didn't like it it's not my choice. Who the fuck am I to tell other nations what they can and can't do? A controlling attitude.. maybe that's why other nations hate us? Cause we get in their personal business and piss them off? The Russians even said they would do the enrichment themselves, in their nation, so that even if the Iranians wanted to make a bomb they wouldn't be able to enrich the uranium themselves.. so they couldn't. The Iranians agreed to this term.. so what's the big deal?

North Korea threatens us on a weekly basis but I don't see anyone jumping to go to war with them. And why not they are a dangerous nation aren't they? Oh yeah.. they have nuclear weapons. We mess with them and they'll start launching. Well what about Syria.. they have people crossing their borders and attacking US soldiers weekly as well. Oh yeah Syria said they have chemical and biological weapons and they'll use them.

Logically it doesn't make sense to attack nations of no threat to us. We should be protecting ourselves from nations that are of threat instead. Politically attacking nations like Iraq and Iran is exactly what we want to do. Those nations have no military forces of significant threat to us, no WMD, and the oil in those nations is of immense value. If we control the oil the world will be at our mercy.

*plays the theme for Fallout* That was a great game.

It is important to me that you all realize this is a debate of opinions. I'm going to attack your opinion.. not you. I'd appriciate it if I was treated with the same respect but I doubt it.

 

That's very insightful. It's just human nature, and not necessarily unique to Americans. I will say this, though -- when help is really needed, Americans are very generous.

Some Americans, possibly. I do think that our way of life is the best one that's still possible to pursue, but I don't think our values should be forced on anyone.

I think this is somewhat exaggerated. I'm sure that innocent people sometimes get detained, and that it takes some time to sort it all out. It's a chaotic situation over there, and although it doesn't necessarily make it right, it is going to happen. Torture is harder to defend, and I'm not interested in trying to do so, but I would like to believe that it has only occurred in isolated incidents. Too, I would like to believe that our soldiers are generally good, courageous people who are just trying to make the best of a bad situation.

No. I'm willing to die for yours, and your right to express them.

The point about Muslim culture is well-taken, as well. It is rather barbaric compared to our own, which owes to the fact that Muslim culture largely missed the Enlightenment which influenced European culture, and instilled in the culture a new value and appreciation for human life. Ironically, the catalyst for this was actually the Black Death, after which there were few enough serfs and peasants left to labor that each one really was valuable. The Muslim world was largely unaffected by the Plague. Enough history lessons, though.

Well, the reasoning the President gave at the time was that Saddam Hussein possessed chemical/nuclear weapons and was preparing to use them. Even before we went to war, I remember many people saying that this was not the case, and it was of course eventually demonstrated to be untrue.

Ultimately, I don't know exactly why we went to war in Iraq. I think the oil theory is unlikely, and I'm not sure what else of use they have over there. I don't have a security clearance to have access to that kind of information and probably never will, I don't even work for the federal government. I don't think we should have gone to war when we did. War represents a failure of all diplomatic options, a failure to communicate or come to an agreement, a failure of humanity. Though I'm not opposed to the use of military force, I think it should only be used when all other options have been exhausted, and I don't think that was the case in Iraq. I remember seeing Hans Blix on CNN saying that his inspectors were making progress, they just needed a bit more time. I will also say that Saddam Hussein's recalcitrance didn't help the situation at all, so there's a good chance that a diplomatic approach wouldn't have worked anyway, and war would have been inevitable anyway.

You're right, it's a bad situation, wars always are. I don't really have a good answer for you here, as I'm not a military strategist.

A peace attained through genocide is pretty hollow. Diplomacy is a definitely a worthwhile effort. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with understanding and open-mindedness. Just don't be so understanding and open-minded that people walk all over you.

I don't know. Although I was affected by 9/11, I don't recall wanting revenge for it. Having revenge doesn't change the original injustice.

You make some good points, but I don't agree with others, particularly the America-bashing. Sure, America isn't perfect, but it is one of the best places in the world to live, if not the best, and Cyrus' original post has a whole host of reasons why.

 

I guess that's one way to defuse a political flamewar.

 

Religion is not the answer, relationship is.

 

I think mani just said everyone just needs to get busy.

 

<IMG SRC="http://www.franciscaansevredeswacht.nu/fotos/peace.jpg" width="450" height="340" ALT="peace">

 

You just blamed religion. Well.. as a nondenominational Christian I have a belief not a religion. Wont even go into the whole "religion is the path to hell" thing but I'm outy like this dude int he harrier.




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