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Lets Get Political...

Discussion in 'General Open/Public Discussion' started by Rayzer, 29 Aug 2008.

  1. I know we've had our political spats from time to time, so lets have another round ;)

    But seriously, this has to be one of the most important elections in my life time, and if nothing else, you should be informed about what the candidates really stand for and not be fooled by the misconceptions that are often spread.

    I go to buy pizza at the mall where I work, and the guy behind the counter is constantly talking about how Barack Obama is going to tax small businesses into oblivion. That's simply wrong. Likewise, much of the rhetoric that comes about about McCain isn't true either.

    While I am an Obama supporter, I certainly intend to watch McCain's speech at the RNC to hear first hand what he has to say. In the same vein, I encourage you all to listen first hand, with an open mind, to what Barack had to say last night.

    It's 45min or your life, that could change the direction of the country. Don't settle for some idiotic pundant's recap, watch it for yourself and draw your own conclusions.


    Honestly, I find myself too cynical to believe he can actually win. The whole campaign is about hope, but I'm not sure I could really deal with losing if I actually began to believe he could win.

    p.s. I think McCain made one hell of a brilliant step picking Sarah Palin as his VP. Tricky little bastard, nice move.
  2. Manitou

    Manitou Old War Horse DragonWolf

    I look at it this way, Rayz. When I was in the military, I had to conduct business that required me to have a top secret security clearance. They interviewed anyone I ever knew, just about. My character was on the line for any association I ever held in my adult life.

    The POTUS has an infinitely more serious need for a security clearance. Could Obama get a TS if he were to undergo the same scrutiny I did? What were his associates like? What was his business dealings like and with whom did he deal? I can tell you with absolute certainty I would not have gotten my TS if I had past or current associates like he does.

    While I am not really excited about the choices this year, the POTUS has to be vetted in this area for me personally.

    To be honest, I am sick of having to vote for the lesser of two evils rather than being excited about a candidate. This has been happening for some time in politics.

    On the other side, McCain claims to be a conservative and in my opinion, that is not true. He simply claims that now to gain the conservative base. I cannot find myself happy about him either.

    So I have to resort to the basic issues for me personally ( this list is not all inclusive):
    -- the candidate's stand on abortion
    -- the candidate's stand on our military
    -- the candidate's stand on economic issues (taxes, free trade, etc.)
    -- the candidate's foreign policy experience
    -- the candidate's domestic policy experience

    Depending on how the candidate falls on these issues will probably be the one I vote for. Not because I necessarily like the candidate, but because I am an American and should exercise my right to vote. It has become impersonal for me anymore--I just can't get excited about this any longer.

    By the way, I would have loved to see the dynamics of the run if McCain had picked Condaleeza Rice. ;)
  3. Hamma

    Hamma Commanding Officer Officer

    I pretty much feel the same way as Mani. I am not remotely excited about the prospects of either on of these guys and my list is similar. I watched Obama's speech and I will watch McCain's as well but it's all so orchestrated and planned for so far in advance that I take it with a grain of salt. Everything right down to what suit he wears is determined with massive detail. I am personally waiting for the debates to come where you may see more of their "True" colors come out.

    I hate the two party system most of all because there are issues which I think one party does better than the other and I hate the fact that if I want one thing I have to vote for someone who comes along with a bunch of extra BS that I want nothing to do with.

    McCain's choice was a surprise for sure don't think anyone was expecting it :lol:
  4. Manitou

    Manitou Old War Horse DragonWolf

    If there is one bright spot in all this, it is his selection for VP. I have followed her in the past and she is a great person.

    As Rayzer said, this move was brilliant, and will add some excitement to the race.
  5. Sentrosi

    Sentrosi Protocol Officer Officer

    I was listening to "The Savage Nation" on the radio last night at work. Not by my choice but I was kind of glad for it. Michael Savage said this, and I think he's dead on with it; "Obama isn't too black to be President, he's too green." I can't vote for a candidate who promises something that cannot be delivered; hope. It's basically what Bush has been saying since 9/11. Just substitute the word "Hope" with "Fear".

    I've been reading various forums on the 2008 elections and the pro-Clinton pundits have been coming on strong saying that the Clintons want to have McCain win so Hillary can turn around and run for President in 2012. And there is a certain truth to what they're saying;
    1. When Obama became the clear favorite, Clinton insisted on fighting it. Right down to Obama dodging friendly fire from the Clinton camp.
    2. Bill didn't really give a ringing endorsement of Obama, basically saying that you have to choose someone.
    3. Obama had to basically sue for Hillary's delegates. That's never a good way to 'win over' your next President.

    I want to go back to believing our government has the ability to make the right choice at the right time in a timely manner. Why does there have to be a party anyway? Aren't we all 1. Human and 2. American? Voting along party lines to show party unity only means that a certain percentage of the cast doesn't agree 100% with the legislation. Which meant a deal was put into play so the legislation would go through. Open, thoughtful debate that brings the facts into play rather than fear.
  6. I'm not sure why you think someone running for President would have a less vetted background than you. Not only do you have every reporter on the planet looking into their backgrounds, you also have the opposition digging for dirt.

    I also don't know what associations you mean. If you're talking about that terrorist guy who blew some shit up when Obama was 8 years old, that's more of a running joke that people try to associate Obama with that guy. And the situation with Obama's house has been gone over with a fine tooth comb many times and he's always come out clean. There's lots of info on both subject.

    And considering that he would have the highest security clearance in the land if he won, I really don't think the majority of people are worried he's going to run and sell those secrets to the Russians or the Chinese.

    Here's the defining matter in my opinion and probably the best part of Obama's speech for me. Our country is amazingly divided on these issues, and for too long we've let them continue to divide us instead of looking for the common ground.

    The point of Obama's campaign is not to take this country into the mythic hedonistic liberal society. It is to reach across the isles and actually work together to get shit done.

    Personally, I think the debates seem more orchestrated than anything else. I don't know how you can truly listen to Obama's story and believe it's all bullshit. If you take into account where he's come from, what he's done, and what his dreams are, I just don't believe it's all faked for political gain.

    That I don't understand. First, the converse answer. George and Dick have arguable the most experience of any duo to enter the white house. And considering about 70% of American's think the culmination of the past 8 year is a disaster, I'm not sure years in office needs to be a measuring stick.

    Judgement comes from our experience and our character, not to mention intelligence. I fail to see how Obama's life hasn't adequetly prepared him for service, and I certainly think he's demonstrated better judgement than both George Bush and John McCain.

    I'm not into conspiracy theories, but I think you underestimate the Clinton's love for this country. Actually Obama didn't have to sue for delegate Hilary with drew, and at the convention she conceded the nomination and they never even had to cast votes...

    You didn't watch Obama's speech did you? Because he agrees with you, as do I. ;)
  7. Sorry to keep going, but this is what really gets to me. I'm as cynical as the rest of you. I just don't see how you expect someone with 30 years in the senate doing the same old shit to suddenly change the culture and atmosphere of Washington.

    Maybe Barack Obama is a "risky" choice because he's not indoctrinated into the political landscape. But, I would rather we were wrong taking the risk and suffer for it, than just sit at home being scared and still doing the same old stupid shit, and be in equally a bad place 4 years from now, with no hope left.

    If the only good thing to come out of Obama being President is the fact that the American people stood up and said, enough is enough, lets try something different in the hope to make it better. That to me is enough.

    8 people go laid off from my work on Friday because the economy has turned to shit. Two of them were people I count as friends. I'm ready for something to change, and I'm willing to take a risk to do it. And in my eye's it's not a risky vote, but a vote for hope. And contrary to what Sent thinks, I think a vote for hope is a 1000 times better than a vote for fear.
  8. Master

    Master "First Ten" Club Member

    The change America needs is not going to come from a presidential candidate, the change America needs is for the media to take pride in this country and actually report on things that matter.

    The economy going south has been so badly exaggerated by the media it forced the country into a recession.

    Say what you want about either campaign but when MSNBC has breaking news on their screen and it questions Governor Palins credentials by how many houses she brings to the ticket then I think we know what needs changed in America.

    I am not going to discuss politics - I am getting sick of both parties. I am starting to become more Libertarian as time goes on.
  9. Hamma

    Hamma Commanding Officer Officer

    Good points, the Media is really garbage nowadays. :\
    I've seen and heard that song and dance before, I remember back when 'ol G-Dubz became President his first term. He spoke before the Texas Senate and talked all about this, I don't recall it happening.

    I really don't know who I am going to vote for at this point but I do know that I will be voting for the lesser of two evils and I do know that I will vote because imo if you don't vote you aren't allowed to bitch :lol:
  10. I plan on voting for Bob Barr the Libertarian candidate this year. I am from Illinois and support Obama because i do not like the direction this country has gone in the last 8 years. I am not saying that it was all republicans fault but its time for a change and McCain isn't it.
  11. Tbeast

    Tbeast Recruitment Officer Officer Elder

    I vote for none of the above , they both suck...
  12. Not really related directly to the election, but I'm not sure what you think is happening out there. The dollar has collapsed to the lowest levels it's ever been in my life time, the morgage industry hasn't see failures like this since the great depression, and housing prices are plumeting.

    Not to mention the negative impact gas prices have on the economy or the unemployment rate rising.

    Don't get me wrong, I have plenty of issue with main stream media and generally find them useless. But the economic problems of this country are not made up, and they're certainly not the media's fault.

    You know, I watched an interview with Scott McClellan where he said the very same thing. GW had often reached across the isles in Texas and the democrats and republics often worked well together to get things done. Something happened the day after he took the oath, it all turned to shit. It was a really interesting interview, I'd buy his book but I never manage to get myself to finish non-fiction.

    In the same breath though, I do not believe that Barack is just making shit up. I truly believe that he is sincere. You may call me naive, but I assure you I have not been naive for a very long time, and generally think my bullshit-o-meter does pretty well. I'm ready for something and someone to believe in, and maybe I'll get burned, but for the first time in my adult life, I'm excited about a presidential candidate.

    I really don't understand the that. You have on the one side, for the first time in history, an African American as the Presidential nominee, that in itself is an exciting sentiment. He always happens to be amazingly dynamic and charismatic and has the largest grass roots following of any candidate ever.

    On the other side you have a decorated war hero and life long civil servant. And as much as I disagree with his strategy and views, I think he's an honorable man an a great patriot. He's also chosen a woman as a Vice President. So whichever side wins will make amazing historical strides.

    I don't know how you could follow this election cycle and end up at "they both suck..."

    Between the two of them and their vice presidential candidates, they really cover most of the normal left, independent, and right view points. The only people that could truly be pissed off are die hard right wing conservatives.
  13. Ingwë

    Ingwë DragonWolf<BR>The Goose!

    Obama does have experience working along side Republicans. He cosponsored the Federal Funding Accountability and Transparency Act with Tom Coburn, who is a Republican senator from Oklahoma. The act basically made information regarding federal funding of organizations available to the public in a searchable online database.

    Not to mention the prospect of having a president who is liked by a large number of people in other countries. When I saw the speech that Obama made in Germany, I realized that it was the first time in a long while that I had seen a sizable group of people in a foreign country waving an American flag that was not on fire.
  14. Manitou

    Manitou Old War Horse DragonWolf

    Whether Obama was eight years old when Ayers was actively hating this country is irrelevant if Obama still associates with him today, which he does. It isn't about selling state secrets Rayz. Its about character.

    You know as well as I do that we can't possibly trust the media to be unbiased for either side. We have to research it on our own and decide, based on the standards we have personally set, who closest meets the ideals we desire to see lead this country.

    As for me, I like this poster:

  15. Master

    Master "First Ten" Club Member

    The weak dollar is mainly due to the trade deficit. Fortunately a weak dollar can help with trade because it makes buying American products more affordable compared to foreign and can help elevate or stabilize its value. Lets hope this happens soon.

    The mortgage industry is a disaster and cant really be blamed on politicians. The industry did this to itself by handing out loans like loan sharks to subprime markets. Additionally, people should not be allowed to borrow 120% of the value of something and consider it a secured loan.

    The gas prices have soared mainly due to increased fraud in speculative trading. There needs to be controls put on how they can drive the cost of oil based on fictitious speculation. Taxing the oil companies revenue is not the solution to the price of gas. THe oil companies will pass the tax onto the middle class and the gas will be over $6.00 a gallon.

    There is only one solid way to lower the cost of gas in the US. Lower the demand on foreign oil. There are few ways to do that, alternative fuel sources or increase domestic exploration and drilling. Both of these are years away from making a real difference, however just the action of doing it will alter the landscape for the futures traders.

    Pretty sad when China and Cuba are drilling 50 miles off our shores but we cant.
  16. Hello all... I know, long time no see.

    Until Ms. Palin was going to be the GOP VP candidate, I really didn't want to vote for either of the Presidential candidates.

    All I've heard from the Dems was "Change" but no substance. Just like Kerry's "I Have a Plan". And the typical talking points from Mccain.

    However, as pointed out earlier about security clearances, one of the main items that needs to be looked at is charactor and actions. And here is how I sorted them out.

    Obama.... Slick, great speaker, looks good, weak voting record. (Votes present so as not to have a record that can be used for/against him.) Take a stand and stick with it. Whether right or wrong, I'd have more respect if you just stuck to a position instead of changing with the latest poles.

    Biden. Old white guy with three decades of Washington time. (That's the problem, we need change and he is not it!!!)

    McCain... Pretty much a RINO. Gives to much to the Dems in the spirt of teamwork. Another old white guy who's probably been in the game to long.

    Palin... WOW... In her short time in politics, not only said she would make changes, but has made changes. Fought the old boy network and won. Working on energy issues (Not just talk) Turns down my tax dollars for stupid projects. (oh ya!!)

    Friday morning, I had all but figured Obama/Biden had the election won. Tight, but they would win. Now, I think Mccain/Biden have the stronger ticket.
  17. symen

    symen DragonWolf

    Hi! :D

    Well, that's the Washington dynamic. A senator stands up and says, "I have a really bad idea!", and his counterpart on the other side of the aisle jumps up and says, "And I can make it worse!"

    Well, following the polls is what the Democrats do. Love them or hate them, at least you can say that they really do try to do what they think the people want them to do. :rolleyes:

    I find that a better metric for a Senator's record is legislation introduced and sponsored. On this, Obama has actually been fairly prolific, with a definite government-accountability angle, which I like (I can get behind any reduction in government power).

    Yeah, Biden isn't particularly exciting.

    What exactly does someone have to do to be a "true Republican"? Be careful of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy -- sometimes you find that nobody can live up to the ideals that you've built up in your head.

    You know, sometimes the Democrats are right on an issue. This sort of team mentality is exactly the problem with American politics lately. Additionally, I don't think McCain goes against the party to give anything to the Democrats, he's a Reagan-style old-school Republican.

    I honestly don't understand the buzz about Palin. She's okay, but ultimately a fairly unremarkable, party-line Republican. Her rapid rise and government-accountability angle actually remind me a lot of Obama. Although the recent allegations regarding her possible improper use of the office to fire a state employee are a huge problem for me, if true.

    I don't know about that. Biden covers Obama's perceived weaknesses pretty well. I'm not really sure what Palin does for McCain, as they both have the same perceived weaknesses. Still, I wouldn't call either ticket particularly strong. Even the Libertarians are kind of milquetoast this year -- they really could have done better than Barr. I don't think I can bring myself to cast my usual symbolic but ineffective vote for the Libertarians in a state that always goes to the Democrats this year.
  18. And John McCain technically cheated on his first wife. But personally, I can look at the context and full story of those actions and realize he's not a bastard and a lair.

    The fact that Obama served on the board of an anti-poverty non-profit organization that Ayers was also on, and the fact that they crossed paths in Chicago political circles also fits nicely into context.

    I honestly don't understand how people think that Obama, who worked his way up from such humble beginnings and chose charity work, then public service, over a lucrative Wall Street career, magically turned into the anti-Christ.

    Have you ever watched his speech on religion in politics? If you can for a minute put aside what you think you know about the man, and just listen not to him, but to the message and the sentiment, you might at least find you respect him more, even if you disagree with him.


    See that is the major difference I see. People feel like they need to demonize Obama in order to get people to dislike him. You're trying to argue against his character, people say he doesn't have the experience, he's accused of being a celebrity out for fame, not speaking sincerely, his name sounds too much lick Osama... Nobody seems to be criticizing his message.

    I like John McCain. Three years ago, before he went ultra conservative in his policies, I would have probably voted for the guy. I don't not like him, I think he's wrong. On Iraq, on the United State's place in the world, and other issues. But mostly, because I think he would guarantee another 4 years of a deadlocked Washington. Not because I think he's a George Bush clone, I don't, but because I think he's lost his ability to reach across the isle by reaching as far to the right as he can to secure his base.

    Palin is a perfect example of that. If McCain had picked Liberman as a running mate, I think myself as well as many independents would have thought, "Now there's the independent John McCain we knew" and this election would have been a bit more interesting for us.
  19. Man I'm dissappointed in this thread. I know we can get much more heated than this! :) You could barely boil water at the rate were going.

    With all the dirt thats come out this week on Palin its a field day in the press. And for those that think its just wrong to even bring up anything that might besmudge her reputation, remember this is politics, remember everyone involved and all of the other well known and experienced canidates have had their background constantly dug through and thrown into their faces, so yeah anything and everything in her past and personal life is fair game as soon as she decided to accept the VP nomination especially since there is a good chance she could end up running this country.

    I've just been enjoying watching the Republican spokesmen constantly backtrack, dbl talk, and flat out get angry when anything negative gets brought up about Palin, but they've been running plenty of smear adds and trashing the other side for quite a while now. If you can't take the heat...

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