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Theres no appropriate title

Discussion in 'General Open/Public Discussion' started by Swift As Feather, 20 Mar 2006.


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  1. Swift As Feather

    Swift As Feather

    And test, yes, its a choice,

    so is using methamphetamines,
    so is drinking and driving,

    there are laws against these things, but how does using methamphetamines affect anyone but the user? Sure, you could say operating a vehicle under the influence of methaphetamines endangers others, but still, usually, its just a choice that the individual makes, that affects their lives alone. does this make it ok? You worry that this is just a stepping stone

    "to me it makes me think that this is only the begining...these are choices that people make...this makes me fear for my lifestyle...i did not choose it but from some twisted chance of fate it was chosen for me...how long before i am deemed an illegal citizen...simply because it does not adhear to the ruling majorities ideals of morality and faith...this is my life and my body...keep your hateful and pious retoric away from it..."


    to the loss of all your civil liberties, thats a little of a far stretch isnt it?

    And the argument that without abortions, we would all be paying for fatherless children, is that a true statment or just an assumption. Why do we have so many deadbeat dads in this country? Is their really any relationship between abortion and this? If I were you test, I would be more worried obout the flip side of things, pretty soon, since we become so clomplacent with life, whats next? ship people off to the gas chamber once they become the slightest non functional in society? other things to ponder:

    1. Why is the divorce rate now over 50%
    2. Why are most people still paying off thier wedding long after they are divorced.
    3. Why are STD's at an all time high, how come sexual education in the school has not dropped our incidence in this country of teen pregnancy, stds, and fatherless children.
    4. Why are 30-35 percent of children now living in a single parent household.
    5. how bout this, there is a new term floating around called "starter Marriages", yes, its true. Most starter marriages have contracts that allow you to be null and void of any legal obligations for five years. hmm, the only problem here is that starter marriages beget starter children.....


    lots of good questions, I suppose this now labels me as a radical thinker. or a trouble maker, a non-conformist, perhaps its becuase i had the day off work and was bored, looking for a good debate. whatever. It is nevertheless a good debate.
     
    Swift As Feather, 20 Mar 2006
    #21
  2. testflight

    testflight

    and that ladies and gentlemen....is the "bringing out the goat" that i mentioned..

    no...i never thought for one minute that r.v.wade would be comprised as it is now...but...there are many things i cannot do "legally" and yet...you can...you have civil liberties in that respect...i cannot marry who i wish too..if i chose to...if i wanted to visit my partner in the hospital who might be dying...i can not...oh...i can if i go thru "the proper channel" ie...an attorney and legal documention...and spend an insane amount of money to do this...why should i have to do that? what makes me any different than you? its a whole other topic here i understand that...but when you bring up civil liberties...you open a whole other can of worms...you in reality have more than i do...so in your bringing out the goat...i brought out mine...

    abortion should not be comprised..maybe the way we raise our children...good family values start at home...not in the govt...the govt should not be our totem for knowledge and how to live our life...it begins at home...teach our children the dangers of unprotected sex...stds...teach our children the results of bad choices...not punish those who have made them...love them despite the choices they made teach them that there are ways to overcome the misteps in life....
     
    testflight, 20 Mar 2006
    #22
  3. Om

    Om DragonWolf

    Bring your favorite gal a handful of dandelions and a wish on a stem. She will wish to be yours forever! This is true of grown-ups and little girls.

    (p.s. have you noticed how some people just like to argue? :p~)
     
    Om, 20 Mar 2006
    #23
  4. Hamma

    Hamma Commanding Officer Officer

    Officer
    hehe tis a hot debate. What I love about this team and forum is that we can have these debates and not fire up the flamethrower. Heated debate is good now and then - especially when it isn't about a game. :lol:
     
    Hamma, 20 Mar 2006
    #24
  5. PumpMonkey

    PumpMonkey

    I'll give that a try. (My wife prefer's tulips however...)
    ;)

    ~PM~
     
    PumpMonkey, 20 Mar 2006
    #25
  6. Black Drop

    Black Drop Elder DragonWolf

    Everyone was put on this earth - some find purpose in all sorts of ways. Me personally, I can barely take care of myself let alone worry about what other people are doing. I choose to live in a society that grants me all sorts of freedoms. Whether you live for a higher purpose or just for yourself - there are consequences. Beit from your God or the law of the land. For every action there is a reaction.


    So here is my life view:
    Everything happens for a reason and Karma is a bitch.
    Find the good in the reason and do good (however you perceive "good")- it'll come around to you eventually.


    I think a much better debate is erradicating the Electoral College...but that's just me.
     
    Last edited: 20 Mar 2006
    Black Drop, 20 Mar 2006
    #26
  7. testflight

    testflight

    i don't consider this an argument...i think of it as a discussion...of course when we are discusing things that people feel strongly about either in opposition or siding with..it often comes out to appear as an arguement...when both sides seem not willing to give an inch...yeah..it looks like an argument...but i believe we are all adult enough here to realize that no harm or animosity is meant by it...or intended....

    my question tho...does abortion fall into the realm of civil liberties? i honestly don't know...or is it a morality issue? sometimes its all so grey that you can't draw any lines to put it in a certain catagory....
     
    testflight, 20 Mar 2006
    #27
  8. symen

    symen DragonWolf

    Well, the most basic civil liberty that all others are derived from is the right to do as you will, provided that you don't deny another person their rights in the process. To put it another way, my right to swing my fist ends at the tip of your nose. So, from the perspective of abortion, it all depends on the legal status of unborn babies, and whether they have any rights that can possibly be violated when performing the abortion procedure. This is really the crux of the matter, as Xerxes alluded to and Swifty pointed out earlier in the thread. It's a very murky issue, and I don't feel qualified to answer it one way or the other.

    It's definitely a morality issue too, and the waters are clouded even further by the fact that both sides are approached from a perfectly valid, yet irresolvable with the other, moral standpoint (see my earlier post). This comes down to the same question -- at what point does a baby become a person? I don't even know how to define in an unambiguous manner whether I'm a person.
     
    symen, 20 Mar 2006
    #28
  9. Swift As Feather

    Swift As Feather

    I discussed this with my wife, theres no way I could sway the opionion of an individual strongly opposed to my view, at least that was my opinion, but she reminded me that that is not always the case. I replied that its not the individual thats at the core of my concern, its the country itself. Something has gone amiss in our country. I dont know what it is, I just make guesses. Something that is slowly eating away the fabric, the moral fabric (and I'm not trying to push any religious agenda, I mean basic moral rights, like not killing, stealing etc) of our country. Its affecting every party of our society, the economic foundation, the family foundation, the unitedness of the country. I alluded to it before with some of the facts i posted. Teen pregnancy rates, Single parent children (yes, mostly fatherless, but I have seen motherless too), The poor - 35 million Americans live in poverty, The widespread use of drugs, Kids taking guns to school and shooting other kids, People taking guns to work and killing other coworkers. Its not just one thing causing these things, Its multifactorial. It's like a complex equation is at work, and the result is slowly manifesting itself. The roman empire didnt last forever, we would be foolish to thing that America will, maybe not in our lifetime, but in the future of our children? I brought up a simple topic thats not so simple, Now, I ask you to look at the bigger picture, and you dont have to respond, but I ask you to think about it.

    By the way, why should my employer require 2 days a year for annual training on things like Cultural awareness, Civility and Political correctness. Why do we have to have talks in civility anyways, Shouldnt we all be raised with civility? Why do we need training on it as adults? I have no answer, except that if you answer "swifty, its apparent that you do need extra training" Ill find you..

    and the next time my video card dies, and Im running on an old tnt graphics card, and thus can't play my usual games, you can issue a tempory ban on forum posting until my new card comes in if you so see fit.
     
    Last edited: 20 Mar 2006
    Swift As Feather, 20 Mar 2006
    #29
  10. DonkeySmiler

    DonkeySmiler Eater of Gnomish Persons DragonWolf

    This is one of those threads that I think it would be best if I just stayed out of it.... but I am trying to follow the discussion and see where people are coming from. However, Swifty your last post kind of has me confused, are you for or against (or somewhere in the middle)? Or at this point has it become a seperate issue? :confused:
     
    DonkeySmiler, 20 Mar 2006
    #30
  11. Swift As Feather

    Swift As Feather

    IF your confused, its ok donkey, Im raising questions. I dont have all the answers. you'll find no black and white here.

    But again I wonder, If legalized abortion has become all its supposed to be, how come all the problems that should have been resolved from legalizing it have not come to pass.



    1. Are not Fatherless children as much or more so of a problem then say "before we were brought out of the dark ages"

    2. Last I looked, Birth control was available in all fifty states, which makes me wonder why there needs to be 1.3 million abortions a year. Its a really lousy form of birth control, yet, its become just that. One senator speculated that it would now be Impossible to illegalize abortion because weve come to depend on abortion as a form of birth control.

    3. babies can be born and live at 24 weeks, If this happens, say from premature labor, we do everything possible to save them, because the second they breath air, everything changes, In fact if you have a premature delivery, but were still contemplating abortion, but the infant is 24 weeks or older, you cant kill the infant once its out? Why is that? partial birth abortions happen on infants well beyond 24 weeks of gestation legally in the country now. Why does the baby become independent out of the womb at 24weeks, but is not independent at 26 weeks, in the womb?

    4. Women have still died from abortions, The drug RU486 has indirectly lead to uterine sepsis and death in at least 5 women where the fetal contents were not expelled after the medication was taken.

    5. Did you know that your 14 year old daughter can Come to my clinic, get birth control and The parent does not need to be notified. This same 14 year old can NOT be treated for a paper cut, unless a legal guardian has signed proper consent for care? Why is that? Did you know there is a class action lawsuit against Ortho evra Patch, a common form of birth control, That has been documented to cuase Blood clots that have lead to fatal Pulmonary embolisms? the same law firm that is representing this case is the same that handled the VIOXX class action lawsuit and won? I will not prescribe ortho evra any more, the data is very convincing. I know many 14 year olds still on this medication, I know many of their parents dont know. I still cant treat their paper cuts.

    6. I mean comon people, I see it every day, theres something wrong with a society where I can put 14 year olds on birth control without thier parents knowing and not even be able to treat thier sore throat without paperwork in triplicate.
     
    Swift As Feather, 21 Mar 2006
    #31
  12. Hamma

    Hamma Commanding Officer Officer

    Officer
    This has nothing to do with abortion, weather or not abortion happens there will still be asshat fathers. :| Abortion makes it so we don't have moms in back alleys getting killed because they want or need an abortion because they were raped or their birth control failed.

    People are stupid and will be stupid no matter the laws in the land. I personally do not believe it has become a form of birth control and I think that is a pretty narrow minded view. As time and years go on our population grows as does the number of abortions just like with anyone else. The difference now? Parents of these younger kids don't want to parent which is the underlying issue of all of this.

    Partial birth abortions should be illegal, no if ands or buts about that one

    Alot less than would be dead in back alleys or hidden clinics if some hack asshat was doing them for a quick $500

    Birth control got lumped in with abortion, a mistake? Yep. Parents should be notified no matter what if their son or daughter is seeking any kind of medical attention imo.

    Nothing wrong with society, something wrong with the leaders of said society.

    Personally I don't think anything is on a downward spiral per say. Sure theirs some really stupid laws and things happening out there but "society" isn't to blame. Its leaders who don't listen to anyone but their donators pocket books and not the people's views.

    Society is evolving people are more comfortable with sex, nudity and a number of other things. Who is the government to say things are wrong? Who is someone's church to force down their views upon the land? This all boils down to the freedom we love so much - do we want it or not? Because if we do then we have to deal with these things.

    My solution? Make parents get a license to have children. :lol:
     
    Last edited: 21 Mar 2006
    Hamma, 21 Mar 2006
    #32
  13. Manitou

    Manitou Old War Horse DragonWolf

    It boils down to what we believe to be the truth of a matter. Is truth objective? Who establishes the truth? Is truth relative? Believe it or not, these questions, when answered, will clarify the axioms from which we answer the other questions we see asked here.

    As an example, Hamma made this statement "Partial birth abortions should be illegal, no if ands or buts about that one". My question is, who decides at what point an abortion is legal? Why is partial birth abortion any different than other forms of abortion? Who decides which is better or worse? Is this an arbitrary starting point for "illegal abortions"?

    Also, as another example, Swifty said "so is using methamphetamines,
    so is drinking and driving    " implying that these things are in fact wrong. The same questions here apply. Who decides what is wrong here? Why are they wrong? Who makes the rules concerning these things and what do they base their ruleset on?

    Human beings are always striving to answer the great questions. We, for the most part, earnestly seek the truth in matters such as these. But can we find the truth if we don't understand truth to begin with? Can we as human beings establish the truth? If so, who decides which truth is right and which truth is wrong?

    In my mind there has to be an overarching truth that goes beyond what we establish. The truth has to be something that is objective and not relative. Yes, there are some relative truths, such as which side of your head is better to part your hair. :) But we seek to know if there is truth apart from our perspective, or apart from how we define it or construct it. An objective, overarching truth - something that is above us that sets the standard we are all to follow.

    - Is it right to allow abortions?
    - What defines life and when it starts?
    - Are animals different than humans?
    - Who defines humanity?

    An objective truth on these would imply something higher than humanity because humanity cannot define itself - humanity cannot establish truth. If we attempt that, it becomes relative and subjective. Truth has to be established by something higher than humanity for it to be objective. Once we find that objective truth, we can then begin to see how it answers these questions.

    I don't propose that I have any answers, but I do think we need to remember that humanity cannot provide nor create absolute truth but that there has to be absolute truth somewhere, otherwise nothing makes any sense.
     
    Manitou, 21 Mar 2006
    #33
  14. Abia

    Abia

    I haven't read all the posts, but I wanted to say this before I went any further.

    You're right, no one has any right to say what I can and can't do with my body. I totally agree with the statement above...too bad it's not my body I'm killing and throwing in a dumpster.
     
    Abia, 21 Mar 2006
    #34
  15. Hamma

    Hamma Commanding Officer Officer

    Officer
    :confused:

    We got ourselves into this mess and run our own country, only we can get ourselves out. Debate, War and Freedom is what this country is built on. The problem with Abortion is that there is no easy answer and the answer isn't going to be given to us by someone or something higher. Therein is where the problem lies, some think they already have the answer from scientific means and some think they already have the answer from religious means.

    Either way though in the end it boils down to basic rights, it's the woman's body in which this all occurs in. I she wishes to terminate her pregnancy nobody should have any say about it, not the govt and nobody else other than her. Falling back on what Xerxes said do you remember what you were up to when you were in the womb? 2 months after you were born? A fetus only a few weeks in is not a life, it's a glob of cells and fluids coming together to form a body - it doesen't even have a brain yet and cannot sustain itself. It is essentially part of the womans body - it cannot survive otherwise. It's organs are not developed and it's operating purely on the mothers body. That isn't a life - in a sense its a parasite until it can sustain itself. Harsh? Yes. But go look at the definition of parasite and it describes a fetus. If a child was concieved instantly and could run around on the street playing or start crawling around we would not be having this debate. But that isn't the case.

    Partial birth is another matter, child has pretty much entered the world and come almost full term then it is killed. Pretty much everyone is in agreement and it is banned. However - it accounted for less than 1% of all abortions that have occured in the country.
     
    Last edited: 21 Mar 2006
    Hamma, 21 Mar 2006
    #35
  16. Manitou

    Manitou Old War Horse DragonWolf

    Hamma, you didn't answer the questions though.

    Who decides whether it is a life or not? You? Me? The doctor? What is this decision based upon? Our experiences? Our prejudices?

    You said "That isn't a life - in a sense its a parasite until it can sustain itself. Is this your definition of life? How did you come to that definition? I know of people who cannot sustain their own life because of disease or old age or other factors.

    You also said "A fetus on the other hand only a few weeks in is not a life, it's a glob of cells and fluids coming together to form a body - it doesen't even have a brain yet and cannot sustain itself. It is essentially part of the womans body - it cannot survive otherwise. Here you are again defining life. How did you come to that definition? (In actuality there are studies that prove the baby is separate from the mother. The mother's body has to produce enzymes that prevent her body from rejecting the baby because it is different.)

    Again, I ask, who establishes the truth? Who defines life?
     
    Manitou, 21 Mar 2006
    #36
  17. Hamma

    Hamma Commanding Officer Officer

    Officer
    Science defines life. Humans - define life.

    Until the day when a human is instantly concieved and can run around immediatly after conception this will be in debate.
     
    Last edited: 21 Mar 2006
    Hamma, 21 Mar 2006
    #37
  18. Manitou

    Manitou Old War Horse DragonWolf

    How? Based upon what and who's criteria? How can humanity define itself?
     
    Manitou, 21 Mar 2006
    #38
  19. Hamma

    Hamma Commanding Officer Officer

    Officer
    :lol:

    It's pretty easily actually, through study and research the same way we created the atom bomb, determined how to poison people, put a man on the moon. Nobody says humanity cannot define itself, its narrow minded to think we can't define ourselves.
     
    Hamma, 21 Mar 2006
    #39
  20. Manitou

    Manitou Old War Horse DragonWolf

    So your answer to my question is we define humanity through study and research?
     
    Manitou, 21 Mar 2006
    #40
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