Theres no appropriate title

First of all, I think the degradation of today's society is greatly exagerated. Every generation comes to a point where they think the earlier generations are morally depraved. Just like every parent ends up hating the music their kids listen to.

My grandparents hated Elivs, they thought he was going to bring the world to an end. My parents hate rap music. I'm leaning toward hating Emo if my kids get into that

It's just cyclical, I don't believe there is some huge moral degradation.

1920 - The United States adds a constitutional amendment granting full woman suffarage in all states.

1964 - The Civil Rights Act was passed outlawing discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.

You look at today's generation. You are worried because there are abortions? And you think this is the root cause of ever one of society's problems? That's just preposterous. Incidentally, I heard that same argument made about school prayer.

In South Africa today it is estimated that over 20% of the population has AIDS. That is, 10 million of the 40 million people in the country have AIDS, and you can bet that a ton of those are children born with the disease.

Again, everything is relative. The same exact facts you site to show how evil abortion is, are totally ignored by the same people when they talk about the need to protect the sanctity of marriage from same sex unions. It's complete bullshit.

Governments do not legislate the sanctity of marriage. It's commitment made between two people and how they internally feel about what that commitment means.

Back to abortion. Is it a horrible thing? Yes, I don't think you'll find anyone out there that thinks it's a fun Friday night activity. Do I think people go around having unprotected sex with the mindset that "hey, if I get pregnant I'll just abort the bastard". No. I don't think people are that malicious. But yes, most of the abortions are from people who just didn't take the time to use birth control and now they're in a situation they are not ready for. It is sad, but again, if you look at the numbers from the other side, abortion rates do not increase or decrease based on legislature. Abortions happen, no matter what. It's either going to be by a certified professional in a sterile environment, or something much worse.

I think education and personal responsibility are the keys to reducing the number of abortions. Not legislation. Making it illegal doesn't magically solve all the problems you outlined. Dead beat Dads are there if abortions exist or not. So is divorce. So do all the other problems.

When that 14 year old comes in for birth control, someone has done something right because at least they are willing to be that responsible. I hope like hell you tell them that birth control doesn't protect them from STDs and that they really shouldn't be having sex at their age. Of course, you might not be legally allowed to do something about that. I agree with you and Hamma, the parents should be notified.

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Mani,

That's just the thing. There is not absolute truth in a society. Oh, you can force your version of the absolute truth on the population (Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc). But we are all different creatures with different views. As a society we come together and try to answer the tough questions as best we can. Using our beliefs, our faiths, and our view of the core of morality.

There are easy things. Murder. A good 99.9% of the population will agree that they should give up their right to kill eachother to be protected from the possiblity of being killed themselves. Make not mistake, killing eachother is a right. It is one we choose to sacrifice. That is the basis of a government, we give up some of our freedom to live in a society that protects us and helps up.

Abortion is not something so straight forward. Even partial birth abortions. And partial birth abortions are illegal in all but the most extreme cases last time I heard. But think about it, at 26 weeks it is discovered that your child has the most aweful genetic defect. It will make it to term, be born, live for maybe a week in the most extream pain, and they die a horrible dead. What do you do? What a horrible horrible situation.

I honestly think the more humane thing to do in some situations is not to let that life come into fullness. It's a terrible thing, but I believe it can be a mercy in some cases.

No, there's not absoulte truth out there about abortion. There is no black and white. We simply do our best in the grey area.

 

I don’t believe that it is a matter of Truth as much as we need to look at the Facts.

A definition of FACT by law*:
There is no such thing as an untrue fact, but in the legal system the word is often used to denote conflicting allegations -- and it is up to a judge or jury to decide their truth or falsity.

So, to relate that to Truths, I would state then that a truth would stem from personal understanding and interpretation of facts, as they fit into someone’s opinions and beliefs.

The truths held by one person may not be identical to the truths of another, this is a Fact.
We all have truths, and strange as it may seem – I have read on many posts people typing out The Same Message to each other. Regardless of the topic they are simply phrasing their case differently.

I agree with some of what Hamma posts (this is prolly the 2nd time that has happened), and some of what Mani has stated. And Swifty, Razer, Test…etc…

Examples –

FACT – Adults have died undergoing an Abortion.
FACT – Adults have been saved by undergoing an Abortion.

TRUTH – The United States is a quagmire of dichotomatic interpretations. We claim to keep Church and State separate, but we have not.
TRUTH – All the Problems of the United States could sort themselves out if we, as a nation, follow these simple truths
- learn to think proactively for the greater good of the nation,
- work together,
- Assuming responsibility. With our actions and with our children. (Yes - I’m keenly aware of how difficult this can be. To just bring up one item; there have been numerous reports wondering if the majority of the populace have been living beyond their means. Unfortunately, the answers coming back are leaning towards affirmative. To keep what they want as their ‘quality of life’, both parents are at work to earn more financial income. Leaving their children to be raised by…daycare?…TV?…etc.)

As others stated – I too do not have all the answers, yet these questions, answers and their subsequent responsibilities must begin within ourselves.

* - well…according to the “The 'Lectric Law Library's Lexicon” - I don’t know of any other “legal definition” sites~!

~PM~

PS - As someone once took Justice and hid it within the Law, so now our pallette is a sorry mix of Truth, Facts, Rights, and other issues to numerous to place in one post.

 

is it life that must be defined or is it human consciousness, is it the time when a human soul becomes present in the fetus that must be defined?

We kill every day. Slap a mosquito on your own skin, mince a clove of garlic, slaughter cattle for meat and leather. Heck, we even kill our own braincells on saturday nights. We take life every hour of every day in some manner.

We easily take life without a second thought.

The two big questions are:

1. When is there a conscious human soul present in that fetus-when does that fetus become sentient?

2. What obligation does the mother have?


If it's not your uterus, you have no right to answer number 2. I have only been pregnant in my life with the two children I have now in my marriage. I've never faced this kind of decision so I can't fathom it fully based on my life experiences with my own uterus.

Where we went wrong as a society is the double standard we hold women to regarding pregnancy before marriage. Having a baby and being a mother is only beautiful if you're married. If you're not married, the father's a stud and gets a high five from his buddies, you're a whore and your child is a bastard. ...is that pro life? That's what needs to change. That has led to horrifying child abuse in many families and has led to many abortions.

It sure would be wonderful if everyone could abstain from sex before marriage, but not everyone has good emotional support and moral guidance from responsible adults in their youth. Sex is going to happen. Birth control prevents suicide, depression, and abuse.

 

Ok, I think I have now managed to get through all the posts. Here's my take on this, for what it's worth.

Sexual education needs to begin in the home. Parents need to take the responsibility upon themselves to explain to their daughters, and their sons, what will happen if you have unprotected sex. There is a good chance you can become pregnant. You could STDs. There are a myriad of things that could go wrong later, even if it feels right at the time. The children also need to know that the parent loves them unconditionally.

If a women is going to die, and a father has to make a decision between his wife, or his child, I'm sure the father would choose the wife. There is no doubt in my mind. I can't imagine being put in that situation. Thank God I'll never be there.

If a woman (or child) is raped and a child is a result, why should punish the child for the sins of the father? I know, you're going to ask why the mother should suffer anymore than she already has. You're right, she shouldn't. She also shouldn't kill another human being because she was raped. There are morning after pills, which if my memory serves me, actually prevents egg and sperm from meeting, thus no conception. If you want to dog me because of my views on the rape issue, bring it. I was raped at the age of 13. I know how I feel about that, and what I would have done if I had gotten pregnant.

What about young girls who don't have parents who are understanding? I got you there too. I got pregnant with my first child at 16. My parents would have killed me if they knew...they still don't know. I moved to Florida to live with my grandparents fully intending to give birth to the child and drop it off at a hospital and walk away. I had a miscarriage. Actually I guess it was a still birth. I gave birth to her at 6 months and she died.

As I said before...I agree that a woman should be able to do whatever she chooses with her own body. Heck, that's why I have tattoos and piercings. However, she isn't killing her own body and throwing it away in the garbage of some clinic. Those images are one of little humans who have been ripped from their save haven and tossed aside.

It is widely believed that because most human children have no memories before a certain age, that they don't recognize pain while in utero, therefore it's not inhumane to perform abortions. I disagree. Just because you dont' remember the pain, doesn't mean it doesn't hurt like all get out. I've been in two major accidents, plus collapsed a few times, each time sustaining severe head trauma (no comments about that explains me now, ). I don't remember the injury, and therefore don't remember the pain. I know what it felt like afterward. You don't easily forget that. It has also been proved that at the beginning of an abortion, the child beign aborted responds to being poked and pulled at. During one abortion, where they pull the child apart and pull him/her out in pieces, it has been proven that when a limb is removed from the whole the child reacts. I've seen the videos where the child appears to be writhing in pain.

I agree that parents who have their child carrying signs which depict these pictures are wrong. I think that's wrong. If the child isn't old enough to seriously know what abortion is, and be talked to about it and make an informed decision, then they don't need to be there. I've never picketed a clinic. I'm not that kind of gal...ok I am, but I wouldn't picket a clinic. (Give me a sign and point me in the direction of the nearest child support office that isn't helping people, I'm so there) I have, however participated in Right to Life marches. I've never taken my kids. Heck, my mom wanted to take my little sisters and I stayed home to watch them because I didn't think it was appropriate.

That's my two cents on the issue. I have a good half dollar more, but the baby is hollering at me and I must attend to her.

Blessings~

 

One last question I meant to pose, but completely forgot...

Why is my insurance company will cover one abortion a year, but won't cover my birth control?

I need my birth control in order to regulate my hormones...not because I'm worried about getting pregnant. (We've had some work done and can't get preggers) So please explain to me why it's ok to use abortion as birth control.

Seriously, it's not preventive where birth control is.

 

Rayzer, you said -
That's just the thing. There is not absolute truth in a society. Oh, you can force your version of the absolute truth on the population (Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc). But we are all different creatures with different views. As a society we come together and try to answer the tough questions as best we can. Using our beliefs, our faiths, and our view of the core of morality.
But then how do we decide what is right for humanity as a whole? If we accept every society's truths, we have chaos. If we decide that any one society has the best truth, who is able to make that decision? I don't want to force my version of the truth on anyone. I believe there to be an objective, overarching truth that applies to all humanity regardless of the people group, culture, or belief system. I believe this objective truth is credible and knowable. I believe humanity has accepted portions of it in the attempt to be civilized, but rejected some of it to claim control of their destiny.

Sterling, you said -
The truths held by one person may not be identical to the truths of another, this is a Fact.
We all have truths, and strange as it may seem – I have read on many posts people typing out The Same Message to each other. Regardless of the topic they are simply phrasing their case differently.
If we all have truths, what happens when they contradict each other? Who's truth is then right and who decides that? The stronger of the two? The smarter? Or is there something that will be judge over the two "truths" to establish which one is right, if either.

 

What I learned from the short time I worked in the medical field is your insurance company probably covers abortion because it's cheaper than you giving birth in the hospital. Bottom line, it saves them money.

 

Well don't that just beat all.

 

That's just the thing Mani, we do decide it as a society, culture, and country. There are conflicting truths, we don't all agree. But we agree, that while we are here, we will abide by the laws of this country. Those laws are not infallable and are subject to change. You are also free to seek a society that is more aligned with your beliefs.

Stop being so vague. If there are these absolute universal truths to morality, why would there even be a discussion. And that is just the thing, there is always a different point of view, different cultural beliefs. But as a country, we simply do the best we can.

It's a shifting scale. Just like woman's rights, and civil rights that didn't used to exist, why in the hell did it take this country a 150 years to grant civil rights to all its citizens. Well...all except the gay ones. They can do everything except get married.

It is something that we struggle through together, with our different opinions like this. None of us will convince the other to change their mind. We can only convince ourselves to do that as we live and grow and our perspective shifts. Our experiances have made us who we are and what we believe. Together we try to come to some sort of harmony. It's not easy, and nobody says we get it "right", we simply do the best we can and hopefully learn and grow along the way.

 

I would also assume it has something to do with your having your tubes tied. The don't have to worry about covering the abortion either, since you can't get pregnant.

As far as I know, my wife's birth control has always been covered. It is a sucky situation though. Hopefully you can use generic brands which hopefully aren't too expensive.

 

Oh and Queen, I must applaud you. You have an amazing ability to be concise, direct, and even poetic in dealing with these things. I find it so hard to effectivly convey what I am trying to say without going on and on.

I enjoy reading your posts

 

I didn't have my tubes tied, hubby had a vasectomy and we didn't have this insurance company when that was done.

As much as I hate it, I guess I can understand the whole money issue. Although I would think that birth control, or preventing the conception, would be cheaper than the dealing with it later.

Oh well...this is why I don't sell insurance anymore, lol.

 

Well that's just weird. Something seems wrong there. They'd have his medical history and all, even if you changed insurance companies. But, I don't see how that would exclude you from being covered from birth control.

But insurance companies are crazy and I don't pretend to understand them. I have a friend who just switched jobs, he's working as an independent contractor and therefore has to have individual heath insurance. His wife is pregnant, doesn't work. Although she has no medical bill associated with it, she has a history of Arthritis which automatically excludes her from individual insurance policies. So, she has to be on COBRA which is costing them something like $570 a month. No wonder so many people don't have health insurance.

But we should start a new thread for that discussion

 

Rayzer, I really don't want to come off as being vague. What I want to do is challenge the prevalent relativistic truth out there.

Why are there discussions and debates about objective truth? Because most of humanity denies that there is in fact an objective truth. Why are there always different views? Because we each have our "version" of the truth. If we as humanity accept that there is a higher authority with objective truth (it would have to be an authority higher than humanity to be objective to humanity) then that would imply that we are now accountable to that higher authority. This is offensive to most human beings - we would rather not be held accountable for our actions and for what we do or do not do with our lives. This also calls into question what this higher authority might do as far as judging those actions not in accord with, or in fact denying, the objective truth established.

I am not posting here to change someone's mind - I am posting here to open anyone's mind who is ready to consider there might just be a truth higher than our own. (One could use Pascal's Wager at this point as far as being right or wrong about this objective truth and its author.)

Harmony is desired by all of humanity. But it can never be achieved if we each have our own version of the truth. We must come to an agreement on one objective overarching truth that applies to every single human being. Who would establish this?

 

Mani,

It's a given that the large majority of the population has their moral foundation in religion or from a higher being or accountablity as you say.

But even if we assume everything you say is 100% correct, there's still a problem. God doesn't spell out the "objective truths". It is still a matter for man to interpret the truths that have been laid out from a number of sources.

It would be one thing if there was a written list of these global truths that we could refer to and know for certain that we are always correct, but there simply isn't. You take a commandment, "Thou shalt not kill", and a Beatitude (which are seen as the commandments of the New Testament for Catholics) "Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy." and you try to interpret their position on Abortion.

In the end, it is still an interpretation. Even if these absolute truths exist, and everyone on earth agrees that our actions will be held accountable by God, we are still here, humans, trying to interpret what those truths are as best we can.

Which comes back to what I said. We, as a socieity, simply do the best we can in a tough situation. Taking into account all our beliefs and values.

 

Although objective truth may seem to be an issue apart from spiritual matters, it really isn't, is it?

If this higher authority is there, sharing the truth would be very important to Him. You yourself went to what I believe to be that revelation of the truth to bring up some questions about how we are to interpret them. In my opinion, it is incumbent upon every human being to explore what we have discussed and to seek their answers. Be open to the concept that there could be an objective truth, as I believe there is.

Abortion, while seeming to be the main issue, is in fact a symptom of a deeper problem. It begs us to define what human life is and where it begins and who establishes this fact. I think we can find it in the same book you referenced. The question of humanity and it's beginnings (where humanity begins) will answer whether abortion is right or wrong in any circumstance.

 

Truth

 

I actually disagree on the point that faith and religion have no place in laws. Who you are as a people is defined by what you believe. For a lot of people, faith and religion plays into who they are and what they believe.

But that nature, it is impossible to keep religion and faith out of law making. Laws are a reflection of a culture's belief. Where I do believe it should be left alone is regulating people beliefs or the religion they must participate in or the option not to participate at all.

Just as you bring a secular view into your stance on issues, people bring their faiths in. I don't believe this is wrong. When people bring intolerant ideas to bear, regardless of their origin, I will disagree with them as part of my belief system.

But I do agree that religion does not offer definitive answers or solutions to these problems, as any religion is subject to a large number of interpretations.

 

It's sad you will spend eternity in Hell because you refuse to face the facts
that you will be held accountable for you decisions in life and refusal to accept the fact someone has more control than you. (That someone being God). To some of the responses above-God does give you clear and direct orders on what Truth is, how to understand it, and how to live by it. Scripture is not up for your interpretation, it interprets itself. I will pray that your eyes are opened to the Truth.

I used to have the opinion that abortion was okay. The exact same as many of your posts above-untill I found out that my mother was going to abort me.
Somehow, things change when you start applying the facts to yourself.

Jesus Christ said, " I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man comes to the Father but by Me."

My friends-that is the Truth in a nutshell.

I refuse to hear, when you have died and not given your life to Christ, on your day of judgement, that I never told you. There it is for you, its your decision, is eternity worth not making and seriously thinking about the correct decision for the rest of your life?

EVERYONE HAVE A NICE DAY =)