Very interesting...

To reply to Blazt's post:

The manual has some very messed up instructions in it however. Leave it to the fanatics to put into action those more extreme instructions such as killing homosexuals. The bible allows these people to justify their atrocities because they interpret it this way or that way. Being allowed to interpret the bible however they wish, and then act according to the interpretation, is a mask for advancing one's own ideals, potentially being entirely subconscious. (i.e. "God talked to me and said to do this") Quite similar to the way Hitler used his "chosen race" idea to initiate the Holocaust. I'm not saying we are facing such a problem now, but the door is wide open. Just need a charismatic Jesus worshiper with a hatred for anything not Christian. Not a rare thing. Jesus Camp anyone?

I really hate to look at humanity as a big clump of "sinful flesh". I feel that this is just another excuse to cover up the colossal contradictions bible followers must turn a blind eye to in order to fully believe the story. It attempts to belittle humanity as an imperfect smear on the robe of this perfect being and convince believers that you should always believe GOD's word, which can be anything when the interpretation gymnastics take place, over man's word. It is quite the ingenious intellectual cage where believers no longer need to listen to human ideas, because they are sinful and imperfect. Only believe GOD, in other words, this book, written and influenced entirely by men seeking control of the masses at the time.

The 10 commandments are a great basic guideline for those who wish not to assign morality to things themselves. Or for those who constantly question the legitimacy of their own morality. But I don't believe any of that crap. To be convinced that you are incapable of independently assigning morality because you are but a lowly, sinful human. It is forfeiting your consciousness which you have been told is sinful to an idea that you have been told is perfect. Why not look to the perfect being to decide what is morally acceptable for you as an individual, right? That way you are assured "perfect morality", or at least morality that god favors, and of course any deviation from the assigned perfect morality is a result of sinful human nature. Not only are you given a "perfect morality" but you're also given a "get out of jail free" card too. Pretty sweet deal I suppose. My consciousness has greater value to me however.

You are right, by declaring to be Christian you are not in any way declaring any kind of perfection or moral authority. In fact, quite the opposite. However, you will gladly assert that your god has these traits, and according to your bible's story, I was made by that same god in the same way you were. Thus, even though I don't follow its' authority, I *should*, because like it or not, it's the Truth (tm). The story doesn't go "God created Christians". You don't have to claim moral authority, your God has it. "I'm not morally perfect, but my god is, and he made YOU." That's where personal belief ain't so personal anymore. That's where sh*t really starts to fly.

If Jesus died for all sins, why does sin still exist? Was it to clean the slate of all previous sins and start with fresh sins? Does sin have a breaking point that must be relieved by a messiah every couple thousand years? What exactly did Jesus accomplish by dying for our sins if sin (going by Christian definition) is still quite prevalent if not rampant? What would have happened if Jesus had not died for our sins? I wonder if Christianity would exist. Blood of a martyr is quite powerful in advancing fledgling religions afterall.

Unfortunately I have to disagree with you. Would it not satisfy a Christian greatly to convert anyone to accept Jesus as their savior at any given moment? In the Christian's eyes, they are saving this person from damnation. To them, it is an act of love. Not only that, but they get brownie points with God too. At least the overt holy wars use a direct approach over subversive tactics. Drawing somebody into the cage is hardly an act of love when you can see what religion really is, and just how much pain, hatred, and suffering it alone has caused. But like I said, to the Christian, it is an act of love. This makes it twice as dangerous as an overt crusade style approach. Though the message may be to love everybody, it certainly seems to have gone the way of "Love everyone who accepts Jesus." (Ain't that right, Michael Vicks?)


To expand on Jesus Camp: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2E0ZRr5OH0

 

This is not a counter-argument to me. You've validated what I said, people take the Bible and skew the messages delivered therein. It is EXACTLY a mask for someone to further their own ideals. Their own ideals are not in the Bible.

Its unfortunate that you don't want to look at it that way, but that is just the way it is. You should stop looking at everything I say as a Christian plot to convert the world and understand my meaning. In my mind, there is no belittling of humanity. Its just a fact. I do in fact believe God's word, and do not follow blindly anyone who says they think God says such and such. You seem to have a pre-supposition that we're all lemmings looking for some evil cause to follow when that is not the case, and rather unfair to presume.

You're right, it is as sweet a deal as you can get in my opinion.

In no way are we assured perfect morality. We are assured to be given a perfect example, what is done with that afterward is our own fault.

Its not a matter of being morally lazy and letting some factor outside our own minds determine our morals, its guiding our own morals to follow the example given. At all times the choice is there. Do you follow or do you quit? I haven't found anything yet in the Bible that has forced me to compromise my own personal morals, I've found quite a few things however, that shed different light on morals I've previously held.

Does your personal belief not also assert that no God created me?

In the old testament, there was a hefty regimen of sacrifices that were prescribed as atonement for sin. In the ceremony, the sin was symbolically transferred to that animal prior to it being killed. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice for all sin, past and present. Its not that sin was gotten rid of or the slate was wiped clean, its that all sin was atoned for by his death.

Exactly, man-made religion can cause a lot of those feelings. In my personal relationship with Jesus, there has been none of that. If you have a church financial counselor that is telling you how much to donate, that is incorrect with the Bible. Any donations are between you and God and that is where it ends. Unfortunately this idea isn't held by everyone, and I guarantee all of them will come up empty on a Biblical search for why they do it. Ten times out of ten, any church policies that are causing angst among those that go there have no Biblical basis.

and from your previous post:

I've never in my encounters seen anything that says its ok to kill homosexuals, and I think any Christian taking up this argument would be hard pressed to prove it. It is just flat out incorrect.

Christianity never died, people's interpretation of the meaning of the word has however. Originally, Christian meant 'follower of Christ.' Over time it has been redefined by many people as a word encompassing all those who are in any way affiliated with a Bible, and that simply is not true. A Christian attempts to follow what Christ inspired through others in the Bible, not take that and twist it to their own uses.

 

I wasn't seeking to disagree. So then we are in full agreement that no matter the truth behind it all, religion fails miserably in the hands of man, and thus far all we have to show for it are things like the crusades, and the people standing on streets with "God hates fags" signs.

So let me get this straight. You feel that we as humans, are wicked, sinful beings *by nature*, and should be ashamed of ourselves and repent to god simply for being human. But at the same time you do not feel this is belittling humanity at all, because it is fact? I'm confused. Though I suppose when you come in with the presupposition that it is a reality rather than a dillusion it is easier to believe because, it is reality, it just is. Proof be damned. The bible says it and thats all that matters, right? I don't believe Christians are out to convert the world. Well, not all are. Actively at least. But what exactly is your meaning? You contradict yourself and justify it by saying "because the bible says so". Or by telling me I don't understand your meaning. What exactly do you think I do not understand about Christianity's view of humanity, and how exactly does that view not belittle humanity? Because it is true? Please.

You blindly accept the bible then. But you probably also feel that it is OK to blindly follow your god, am I correct? What convinced you that the bible is what it claims to be in the first place? Did your parents say so? Your priest? Did god knock on your door one day and say "hey, the bible, yeah, it's all true, now get your ass to church"? No matter the case, at some point, you took something that someone said/you read as fact. To accept such wild claims without a shred of tangible evidence is nothing short of blind acceptance. I shouldn't say blind, I should say mislead. I don't know your particular faith story, but I will assume you have never met this particular God. Maybe it was a decision you were lead to systematically? Were you as a child exposed to religious material presented as fact? What about Santa Clause? Did your parents ever assert Santa as a real person? Did you believe them, especially after seeing Santa at the mall that day? What about God?

Hmm, it depends on what you would define a lemming as. Does a lemming buy into things that are not only impossible to prove or validate beyond one's own willingness to believe it? I like to define lemmings as blind followers. That whole gag about lemmings throwing themselves off a cliff because the one in front of them did so? Seems to fit the description for the majority of the religious masses. It isn't a matter of lemmings seeking evil, it is a matter of evil seeking the lemmings through blind faith of religious dogma.

So I suppose that selling point of Christianity appealed to you then? Personally I liked the Santa story, even if it was a little invasive to my privacy. I like to think of it as the "God lite" story. Don't do bad things cause he's watching, and you won't get presents at christmas. I didn't much like the god story though. Too egotistic, too hateful, too bloody, racist, demeaning, belittling, self-hate promoting for my particular taste.

Word games. Oh the word games. "This blanket is not blue, it is azure!" "I do not blindly allow the bible to determine my morality, I simply try to align my morality with its absolute perfection." The bible tells you not to kill. Do you decide it is morally unacceptable to kill because the bible's perfect example says so? I don't kill because I understand the value of human life. Something the bible tends to trivialize. It is not optional for a Christian to decide if they should or should not follow the bible's morals. The bible does not state "Do not kill unless you feel it is morally acceptable". You aren't deciding anything. You are following what has been decided for you. Of course in the case of killing, this is a good thing. If you were presented with a case where your "gut morality" contradicted a "bible morality", which one would you trust more?

Yes. Want some evidence supporting my belief? (I hate that word, belief. Far too easy to be misinterpreted as faith. My understanding thus far fits better) Or should I bother?

So God, the omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent being who created us, before Jesus died, held sin against us? When someone would sin, in god's eyes they could not be entirely forgiven until his son died on the cross. How can a benevolent being hold back forgiveness? Please answer me that. One of those million dollar questions.

Christianity is far from excluded from those feelings my friend. Believe me, I know where you're coming from. The true example of Christianity you speak of is supposed to be a loving, brotherly relationship between man and god, but that simply is not the case, and you cannot deny this. Even if Christianity was as benign as you claim it to be, toss Muslims and Jews into the mixture and there can be no peace. Ever. In fact, with Iran beginning nuclear research "for peaceful purposes", after previously expressing how willing they are to wipe a certain nation off the map in the name of religious dogma. I'd be willing to wager religious interests are the biggest potential spark to WWIII.

Leviticus 18:22: Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13: If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

It's right there. Maybe a page or two ahead of your quote. Throughout the bible it continues to portray gays as abominations to god. They are referred to as Sodomites, Dogs, and the like. It specifically words itself to incite hatred against a group of people both now and then seen as abominations in the name of god. Be it part of god's plan or human misinterpretation, religion is responsible for that hatred. That's one group of people. Don't even get me started on the religious hatred abound in the middle east.

Does this not constitute the death of the original concept of Christianity?

To be a "follower of Christ" implies far more than simply following the moral example of an ancient man. You follow this man's moral example because you are convinced it was perfection. It was perfection because he was the son of god. By being the son of god, it means a god must exist. If a god exists, then everything the bible says is true, because God instructed those who wrote it. The implications are endless. It is all of those implications that have been changed/added/subtracted that make Christianity the least likely story compared to the other two Abrahamic religions. (Of course I don't believe any of them) It has more or less exposed the inner workings of religious belief systems and shows how easily these beliefs can be modified through human interpretation, yet still retain the stamp of God's perfect word. You don't think people in the past used this to their advantage? Even people now? The followers aren't the ones who twist things to their advantage.

 

I never understood the pornography taboo. When pornography is mentioned in this sense it usually simply means naked bodies. Why should the naked human body be so taboo? This isn't just a religious thing more than a societal idea crammed into the religious world of taboos, but still. I'm not saying we should all walk around naked, but why is something entirely natural, and in a religious person's mind, a result of god's perfect work, made out to be something taboo? A parent will buy their kid a copy of "Death Slaughter 4" featuring realistic decapitations and unprovoked violence, and let them play it without any kind of understanding that it is just a video game, yet they forbid them from seeing a naked human body. Sometimes, societal priorities are simply laughable.

 

I liked his answer as well. The problem is so obvious when you don't have a god to defend. Religion does not respect difference of opinion, and I understand why. The crazy assumptions religious people make about reality must be defended, because to realize they were wrong (or another religion was the "right" one) would be simply too much to cope with for the majority. You'll hear from religious people things like "Life is meaningless without God", "I don't know what I'd do if God didn't exist", and yes, even "I'd end my life if I realized God wasn't real.". It gets me wondering just how mentally stable some of these people are.

Here's the simple problem with religion in all respects. Would a believer say "Maybe my god is the real one, but I acknowledge that maybe my god out of the 5,000+ recorded gods of history isn't in fact the real one, or that gods may not exist at all". Doubtful. The believer has invested quite a bit of "soul" stock in their particular faith (if they believe in souls). I doubt they'd be ready to accept that they were wrong and that there's no such thing as heaven, or angels, or gods, or miracles. That is where the danger lies. I know a friend that was in a pretty nasty car accident where his SUV rolled 3 times. He came out of it with minor scratches. He attributes this to some kind of god saving him because the other, more logical possibility, that he got lucky, was too difficult to accept. He started buying into religion after this experience. The Christian faith of course, since it is the most advertised faith here in the US. When I try to get him to entertain the possibility that perhaps he just got lucky, and all of the factors put into play at that moment just happened to land him only minor scratches, but he is steadfast in his belief that it was a god that protected him. A classic case of a person believing what they *want* to believe, and protecting that belief by becoming 100% certain about it.

Humans can and will do irrational things to defend their faith, often times in subconscious fear that it could be wrong. That subconscious fear, I believe, results in the absolute certainty we see most believers hold, only because the other possibility is too hard to come to terms with, or otherwise less desireable than the former. Unfortunately it is unreasonable to assert such conclusions as reality. It equates to wishful thinking at best. This may explain why no evidence is ever presented to support god claims, yet believers continue to insist it is reality as if there was a reason to believe such claims beyond unwarranted assertions.

Or something.

 

Well stated. Every religious practice makes its own believers feel more important, so humans are drawn to it. Somewhere along the way of evolving a self consciousness humans felt the need to place themselves above everything else. Payback for the millions of years of being far from the top of the food chain maybe? Does any religious practice include animals going to heaven, or the equivalent, when they die? Nope, you gotta be human to get into that club house. Humanity has largely forgotten that we are just self-aware animals. The Adam and Eve story is a great metaphor for this evolution of self-awareness. Drop a group of people off in the wilderness for a month without any form of technological anything and they will quickly realize just how outclassed we as humans are up against nature.

The human species never was at the top of the food chain until technology to aid survival was developed. We are weak, squishy, slow food in the eyes of a hungry tiger, or bear, or shark. Rather than evolving natural defenses, our ancestors' brains evolved to create artificial defenses that we enjoy even now. Spears, bows, axes, guns, buildings, all give us the ultimate advantage over animals and nature, and lulls humanity into thinking it really is the top of the food chain. I'm pretty sure instictually we all are quite aware that we aren't the top dog, and for some moreso than others, this doesn't sit very well. Religion gives people an excuse to claim that they, according to the very creator of the universe, are important enough to matter. That they are somehow exempt from nature, as if it was placed there for man's amusement. When in reality, if mankind were to disappear from the face of the planet, nature would continue its course without a second thought for humanity.

It's a double standard. A Christian will tell you that religion humbles them as a lowly servant to god, and those that don't believe in their god are trying to assign greater value to themselves when in fact the very opposite is happening. Clever word games and subtle contradictions cover up the fact that it is indeed the religious person trying to assign their life a greater meaning as "god's chosen", disconnecting themselves from nature, the very place, like it or not, that they came from.

Religion seeks to belittle introspection. Any thoughts one may have that contradicts their BS (belief system) are sinful and should be interpreted as lowly imperfect human lusts of no importance in the face of the True Plan. Merely inner demons. It is an intellectual cage. A big one at that.

Simplified, religion is a control mechanism that coaxes people to believe what they are told without question. When that pesky introspection (close cousin to free thought) surfaces, it is to either be guided by religious dogma, or ignored entirely. Otherwise it'd be second guessing God's Plan, and we can't have any of that can we?

Remember, it isn't the atheist saying when they die their immortal soul gets to go to a place of absolute bliss for ever and ever. And even go on to say those that didn't believe specifically in their god will have their immortal souls suffer for eternity in the lake of fire. Cute scare tactic, but you have to buy into the lie in the first place for such spiritual terrorism to be effective. Man, that makes it sound like some freaky doomsday cult....oh wait.

 

spiritual terrorism. did you coin that, kai? That's an interesting catch phrase.

 

Actually I got that one from a youtube comment. I liked it, and I think it fits the description pretty well.

 

I need to start calling you "Pastor Kaikou".

 

Don't call me pastor, I don't want to be grouped with child molesters. Asp, going to have to ask you to refrain from making that religion. I'm fighting against religion, not for new ones. Where did you get such pagan ideas in the first place?

 

That's a rather wide brush stroke... I thought you were above such generalizations Kai.

 

Mani's right! as a human being, you're already grouped with child molesters. ~

I read something interesting the other day. How did it go? Oh, yes.



If you have high values and you are not a hippocrit, you are a liar.
If you are not a hippocrit, you've set your values way too low.


I guess all it really means is people with a strong idea of the right way to live fall short of that every day because we're human, but it doesn't mean it isn't worth shooting for and it doesn't give people the right to put them down for having high moral values to begin with.